The E-Mail Never Sent
Several years ago (I've forgotten how many) I received a particularly nasty and viscous email. Unfortunately the email has been lost, but I remember it well. Its author accused me of spreading "damnable heresy" for rejecting the doctrine of eternal torment. He suggested that I obviously "know nothing" about what the Bible has to say on the topic. The sender recommended that I study the material written by Bill Weise at soulchoiceministries.org. Bill Weise is the author of "23 Minutes in Hell"where he claims to have died and was literally taken to hell. The writer of my email rudely stated that I ‘might actually learn something’ from studying this material.
My usual response to such emails is to hit the delete button, but checking out the material at soulchoiceministries.org got me stirred up.
I began to write a rather lengthy email response to this person; more lengthy and detailed than was probably warranted or deserved. Anyway, I got about 18 PAGES into writing when I stopped and realized the whole exercise was most likely a waste of time and energy. I quietly filed it away thinking maybe it would be of some use later - Then promptly forgot it existed.
Recently while sorting through old files, this lengthy, unfinished, never-sent response resurfaced. Perhaps I was "in a mood", having a bad day, or just didn't take kindly to the suggestion that I was spreading "damnable heresy", but boy-oh-boy, it's "really something". While I generally try to avoid writing in the sarcastic, acerbic style in which I began to respond, for whatever reason I believed it was justified that day.
Still, I think this pointed (and sometimes humorous) response makes its point, and perhaps although never finished (it still isn't), someone might now find it useful or interesting. So, without further editing or comment I present for your edification, and maybe entertainment:
The E-mail Never Sent
-DJH
My usual response to such emails is to hit the delete button, but checking out the material at soulchoiceministries.org got me stirred up.
I began to write a rather lengthy email response to this person; more lengthy and detailed than was probably warranted or deserved. Anyway, I got about 18 PAGES into writing when I stopped and realized the whole exercise was most likely a waste of time and energy. I quietly filed it away thinking maybe it would be of some use later - Then promptly forgot it existed.
Recently while sorting through old files, this lengthy, unfinished, never-sent response resurfaced. Perhaps I was "in a mood", having a bad day, or just didn't take kindly to the suggestion that I was spreading "damnable heresy", but boy-oh-boy, it's "really something". While I generally try to avoid writing in the sarcastic, acerbic style in which I began to respond, for whatever reason I believed it was justified that day.
Still, I think this pointed (and sometimes humorous) response makes its point, and perhaps although never finished (it still isn't), someone might now find it useful or interesting. So, without further editing or comment I present for your edification, and maybe entertainment:
The E-mail Never Sent
-DJH
ear Thomas,
Thank you for taking the time to write and thank you as well for your concern about my eternal wellbeing.
I noticed that you sent your email to ‘questions@harvestherald.com’. I’m a bit confused since your email contained no questions, but simply your blind assertion that ‘You (that would be me) know very little about the Bible’s teachings about hell’.
Without accusing you of intellectual laziness, I must ask you Thomas, did you bother to read ANY of the material on my site? Surely, if you had cared to look, you would have found that I have researched and written a great deal on what the Bible has to say about hell and punishment.
I wanted you to know however that I did in fact check out the material that you pointed me towards since you suggested that ‘It may be that God can teach you something’. I did learn something Thomas; namely that a sucker is born every minute, and that the ‘Christian’ world is full of charlatans, liars, and deceivers, of which Bill Weise is a prime example. It is sad indeed that any child of God could so easily be taken in by such utter foolishness.
The fact is, Thomas, I love God, I love my savior Jesus Christ, and I love the Bible. You accuse me of ‘Damnable heresy’. That is a strong accusation.
I’m going to offer you a challenge Thomas. I am prepared to defend my belief that the Bible knows nothing of your fabled hell-hole of torture and fire. I am prepared to defend this proposition from scripture. You took no time at all in your email to offer even one scripture or to even ask me one question.
So, here’s the thing, sir: I will offer you significantly more courtesy than you have afforded me, and I will take the time to present my position to you. Will you have the courage to consider it? Instead of offering insults and assertions, are you prepared to have an open and honest discussion about this topic? It may just be that God will open YOUR eyes and save you from your hideous belief that God will torment billions of men and women for all eternity.
SHOULD THE BIBLE BE TAKEN LITERALLY?
On his website (address https://soulchoiceministries.org/fire-hell-real-2/), under the question ‘Is the Fire in Hell Real?’ Bill Weise asks:
If all the verses which mention burning fire are only a metaphor, then how could we ever take the rest of what the Bible says literally? Which parts are literal, and which parts would be a metaphor?
This is a good question. Although one has to wonder why Bill would ask or even anticipate a question like this. After all, Jesus personally took Bill to the literal hell, did he not? Why not just say, ‘Look, I’ve been there, the fire is literal!’?
What do you think, Thomas? Since you pointed me to Bill Weise’s site, I can only assume that you’re in agreement with him that we need to take these passages in their strict and literal sense. So, I have a question for you. Consider these passages:
What do you think, Thomas? Since you pointed me to Bill Weise’s site, I can only assume that you’re in agreement with him that we need to take these passages in their strict and literal sense. So, I have a question for you. Consider these passages:
“The hand of the Lord was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.” (Ezekiel 37:1–6)
“Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.” (Ezekiel 37:11–14)
Are these passages literal Thomas? What do you think? Surely you have no reason for dismissing these passages as figurative, do you? I certainly can’t find any reason to turn these into a metaphor. As Bill says, if the hellfire passages aren’t literal then how would we ever know if anything is literal? And so, to him, if those hellfire passages are literal, why not these?
I’d like you to take a few minutes and reflect on these passages, because I believe that I’ve just presented you with a theological problem of monumental proportions.
Here we have dead people. In fact, they are so dead that they are nothing more than a pile of very dry bones.
Were these people saved or lost when they died, Thomas?
We don’t have to guess. Verse 13 says ‘And ye shall know that I am the Lord WHEN I have opened your graves…. And shall put my spirit in you’.
These people didn’t KNOW the Lord when they died, nor did they have God’s spirit. They were hopeless.
According to your theory Thomas, where did these people go when they died?
Your theory leaves you with one option. They died and went to the ‘hell’ portion of Sheol (more on this later). They were LOST, were they not? What do you think?
According to you then, were these ‘saved’ people who died but had to be resurrected so they could only THEN know God, or were they ‘lost’ people who got out of your ‘hell’ so that they could then know God?
Might I suggest that your hell theory leaves you with absolutely no way out of this dilemma? What will you do? Will you now turn these passages into a metaphor or an allegory? I thought we weren’t supposed to do that. After all, how then would we ever know which passages to take literally, right?
So, my first challenge to you is this: Explain these passages to me, Thomas. Explain to me why lost people get of your hell and are saved by God. If you ‘spiritualize’ these passages, then explain to me by what rule of biblical interpretation that is allowable. God says FOUR TIMES that he will ‘open the graves’ of these lost Jews and save them. Do you believe him? If not, why not?
Surely you must admit that if these passages are literal, and if God resurrects and saves lost people who died without knowing him, then your theory about hell is completely in error.
Later on, I will revisit this topic of literal versus figurative interpretation.
HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
The Hebrew Old Testament word that is always translated ‘hell’ is Sheol.
About this word Bill Weise says:
I’d like you to take a few minutes and reflect on these passages, because I believe that I’ve just presented you with a theological problem of monumental proportions.
Here we have dead people. In fact, they are so dead that they are nothing more than a pile of very dry bones.
Were these people saved or lost when they died, Thomas?
We don’t have to guess. Verse 13 says ‘And ye shall know that I am the Lord WHEN I have opened your graves…. And shall put my spirit in you’.
These people didn’t KNOW the Lord when they died, nor did they have God’s spirit. They were hopeless.
According to your theory Thomas, where did these people go when they died?
Your theory leaves you with one option. They died and went to the ‘hell’ portion of Sheol (more on this later). They were LOST, were they not? What do you think?
According to you then, were these ‘saved’ people who died but had to be resurrected so they could only THEN know God, or were they ‘lost’ people who got out of your ‘hell’ so that they could then know God?
Might I suggest that your hell theory leaves you with absolutely no way out of this dilemma? What will you do? Will you now turn these passages into a metaphor or an allegory? I thought we weren’t supposed to do that. After all, how then would we ever know which passages to take literally, right?
So, my first challenge to you is this: Explain these passages to me, Thomas. Explain to me why lost people get of your hell and are saved by God. If you ‘spiritualize’ these passages, then explain to me by what rule of biblical interpretation that is allowable. God says FOUR TIMES that he will ‘open the graves’ of these lost Jews and save them. Do you believe him? If not, why not?
Surely you must admit that if these passages are literal, and if God resurrects and saves lost people who died without knowing him, then your theory about hell is completely in error.
Later on, I will revisit this topic of literal versus figurative interpretation.
HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
The Hebrew Old Testament word that is always translated ‘hell’ is Sheol.
About this word Bill Weise says:
We hear from many people who are confused about the use of the word “grave” in the King James Version of the Bible. They state that the word “grave” never refers to hell or Hades. What they do not realize is that there are two prominent words in the Hebrew for the word “grave.”
One is the word “qeber” which means a burial site.
The other is the word “Sheol.” Sheol never denotes just the grave. It always refers to hell or Hades, which is the Greek word for the current hell.
I agree that someone is confused. From the information on his web site, it’s clear to me that it’s Bill Weise himself.
Bill says that the Greek word Hades (more on this later), and the Hebrew Sheol both ALWAYS refer to ‘the current hell’.
Once again, I can only assume that you agree with Bill on this point, correct? Do you agree that the Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ in the Old Testament ALWAYS denotes ‘The current hell’?
If so, then before we get into the details, I have a few questions.
Since it’s so clear to you and Bill Weise that ‘the current hell' is described in the Old Testament, then can you please provide me with the Old Testament passages which describe this ‘current hell’?
For example, you believe that hell is currently a place where multitudes are burning and being tortured. Can you show me any Old Testament passages which state this? You believe that the current hell is divided into two compartments, one for the righteous and one for the wicked. Can you show me the Old Testament passages which state this? Can you show me ANY Old Testament passage which describes your ‘current hell’ where billions are being tortured by demons and fire? Anything at all? I’ll wait.
While we’re at it, I’ve got a few more questions for you, Thomas. Since this ‘current hell’ has been around since Old Testament times, and according to you is obviously denoted by the word ‘Sheol’, can you show me in the Old Testament where God ever warned anyone of such a place?
Surely God would have warned our first parents Adam and Eve of the dire consequences of their disobedience. Surely, he would have warned them of this torture chamber of eternal suffering he had prepared for them and countless of their offspring, wouldn’t he? No?
Let’s try again. Surely God warned the first murderer Cain that he was in danger of being tortured for all eternity, didn’t he?
Hmmm, well Noah was sent to preach to the wicked on the earth before God sent the great flood. Surely God told Noah to warn those wicked men and women of this eternal torture chamber, right?
How about the Israelite Judges? The kings? The prophets? Show me where any of these warned the disobedient that they were in danger of an eternal torture chamber of demons and fire? I’ll wait, I’ve got time.
In the Old Testament we have a record of at least 4000 years of human history. Since you believe that ‘the current hell’ as you understand it is taught in the Old Testament, then show me where. Are we really to believe that 4000 years of human history passed, and we have not one single clear warning from God that countless men and women were in danger of dying and being tormented by fire and demons for all eternity? Did God have to wait until the 21st century so Bill Weise could explain it all to us?
On this page https://soulchoiceministries.org/sheol-vs-grave-explained/, Bill is adamant about letting us know that the Hebrew word Sheol never means simply a grave, even though the King James Bible translates the word as such 31 times. The rest of the time this word is translated as ‘hell’ or ‘pit’.
I’m not exactly sure what Bill’s point is. I’ve studied this subject for a long time, and I’ve never come across anyone who teaches that Sheol is simply and always a grave – as in, the hole in which a dead body is buried.
But even if someone held this mistaken notion, then what does Bill prove by pointing it out? From what I can see, absolutely nothing! Thomas, surely you can see that simply saying that Sheol isn’t simply a grave doesn’t magically turn it into your current fabled torture chamber of demons and fire!
Bill lists several of the verses where the King James Bible translates ‘Sheol’ as ‘grave’ and takes pains to point out that many verses indicate that they must be talking about more than a simple burial site. So what?! What he does not, and indeed CANNOT show is that ‘Sheol’ in any way represents or resembles his ‘current hell’ of eternal fire and torment.
Thomas, have you read this portion of his web site? I’m assuming you at least gave his site a little more consideration than you gave mine. His explication of some of these passages is laughably bad.
So, Thomas, what is Sheol? I mean really, you and Bill say it’s ‘the current’ hell. There is simply nothing that I can find on his site that comes even close to proving this. He lists passages from about a dozen popular evangelical commentaries and Bible handbooks, yet not one of them comes close to saying that Sheol is Bill’s eternal fiery torture chamber.
One has to wonder though why Bill didn’t just give us the definition of Sheol from a good, scholarly Hebrew lexicon. How about we try one, okay?
This is from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament ( Harris, R. Laird, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, eds. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Chicago: Moody Press, 1999) Page 892:
Bill says that the Greek word Hades (more on this later), and the Hebrew Sheol both ALWAYS refer to ‘the current hell’.
Once again, I can only assume that you agree with Bill on this point, correct? Do you agree that the Hebrew word ‘Sheol’ in the Old Testament ALWAYS denotes ‘The current hell’?
If so, then before we get into the details, I have a few questions.
Since it’s so clear to you and Bill Weise that ‘the current hell' is described in the Old Testament, then can you please provide me with the Old Testament passages which describe this ‘current hell’?
For example, you believe that hell is currently a place where multitudes are burning and being tortured. Can you show me any Old Testament passages which state this? You believe that the current hell is divided into two compartments, one for the righteous and one for the wicked. Can you show me the Old Testament passages which state this? Can you show me ANY Old Testament passage which describes your ‘current hell’ where billions are being tortured by demons and fire? Anything at all? I’ll wait.
While we’re at it, I’ve got a few more questions for you, Thomas. Since this ‘current hell’ has been around since Old Testament times, and according to you is obviously denoted by the word ‘Sheol’, can you show me in the Old Testament where God ever warned anyone of such a place?
Surely God would have warned our first parents Adam and Eve of the dire consequences of their disobedience. Surely, he would have warned them of this torture chamber of eternal suffering he had prepared for them and countless of their offspring, wouldn’t he? No?
Let’s try again. Surely God warned the first murderer Cain that he was in danger of being tortured for all eternity, didn’t he?
Hmmm, well Noah was sent to preach to the wicked on the earth before God sent the great flood. Surely God told Noah to warn those wicked men and women of this eternal torture chamber, right?
How about the Israelite Judges? The kings? The prophets? Show me where any of these warned the disobedient that they were in danger of an eternal torture chamber of demons and fire? I’ll wait, I’ve got time.
In the Old Testament we have a record of at least 4000 years of human history. Since you believe that ‘the current hell’ as you understand it is taught in the Old Testament, then show me where. Are we really to believe that 4000 years of human history passed, and we have not one single clear warning from God that countless men and women were in danger of dying and being tormented by fire and demons for all eternity? Did God have to wait until the 21st century so Bill Weise could explain it all to us?
On this page https://soulchoiceministries.org/sheol-vs-grave-explained/, Bill is adamant about letting us know that the Hebrew word Sheol never means simply a grave, even though the King James Bible translates the word as such 31 times. The rest of the time this word is translated as ‘hell’ or ‘pit’.
I’m not exactly sure what Bill’s point is. I’ve studied this subject for a long time, and I’ve never come across anyone who teaches that Sheol is simply and always a grave – as in, the hole in which a dead body is buried.
But even if someone held this mistaken notion, then what does Bill prove by pointing it out? From what I can see, absolutely nothing! Thomas, surely you can see that simply saying that Sheol isn’t simply a grave doesn’t magically turn it into your current fabled torture chamber of demons and fire!
Bill lists several of the verses where the King James Bible translates ‘Sheol’ as ‘grave’ and takes pains to point out that many verses indicate that they must be talking about more than a simple burial site. So what?! What he does not, and indeed CANNOT show is that ‘Sheol’ in any way represents or resembles his ‘current hell’ of eternal fire and torment.
Thomas, have you read this portion of his web site? I’m assuming you at least gave his site a little more consideration than you gave mine. His explication of some of these passages is laughably bad.
So, Thomas, what is Sheol? I mean really, you and Bill say it’s ‘the current’ hell. There is simply nothing that I can find on his site that comes even close to proving this. He lists passages from about a dozen popular evangelical commentaries and Bible handbooks, yet not one of them comes close to saying that Sheol is Bill’s eternal fiery torture chamber.
One has to wonder though why Bill didn’t just give us the definition of Sheol from a good, scholarly Hebrew lexicon. How about we try one, okay?
This is from the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament ( Harris, R. Laird, Gleason L. Archer Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke, eds. Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Chicago: Moody Press, 1999) Page 892:
(šĕʾôl). The grave, hell, pit. The KJV uses “grave” thirty-one times, “hell” thirty times, “pit” three times. The ASV and RSV translate as “Sheol.” NIV uses “grave” with a footnote “Sheol.” The etymology is uncertain. The word does not occur outside of the ot, except once in the Jewish Elephantine papyri, where it means “grave” (A. Cowley, Aramaic Papyri of the Fifth Century b.c., Oxford, 1923, no. 71:15). The word obviously refers in some way to the place of the dead.
The article for this entry is long and to save space I won’t reproduce the whole thing, but I’ve got another challenge for you Thomas; find the article in this scholarly work and read it carefully. If you don’t have access to it, then I’ll be happy to send it to you. What you’ll find is that the word Sheol can be, and was understood in a number of different ways, not one of which comes close to describing yours, and Bill Weise’s current hell of fire and torment!
The word denotes ‘the death state’, or ‘the common grave of mankind’. It can be used figuratively, or poetically of that which pulls mankind down towards death.
Interestingly the authors of the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament in some cases completely disagree with Bill:
The word denotes ‘the death state’, or ‘the common grave of mankind’. It can be used figuratively, or poetically of that which pulls mankind down towards death.
Interestingly the authors of the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament in some cases completely disagree with Bill:
Space forbids detailed treatment, but a good number of verses can be collected where the meaning “grave” seems to be demanded. The four in Gen all refer to Jacob being brought down in sorrow to the grave. The references to Joab and Shimei in I Kgs 2:6, 9 are similar. All but eight of the passages concerned are poetic, and it may be that šĕʾôl is just a poetic synonym for qeber which is used seventy-one times for “grave” (and the verb qābar is used all 132 times for “bury”).
Bill says this:
We hear from many people who are confused about the use of the word “grave” in the King James Version of the Bible. They state that the word “grave” never refers to hell or Hades. What they do not realize is that there are two prominent words in the Hebrew for the word “grave.”
One is the word “qeber” which means a burial site.
The other is the word “Sheol.” Sheol never denotes just the grave. It always refers to hell or Hades, which is the Greek word for the current hell.
Who do you think is right Thomas? Do you think there might be a reason why Bill Weise didn’t quote any scholarly reference works?
Do you still believe that the Hebrew word Sheol means the same thing as ‘the current hell’ as you and Bill believe it? Well let’s see. All the words in bold in the verses below are the Hebrew word Sheol, which you say is ‘the current hell’, your eternal torture chamber for mankind:
Do you still believe that the Hebrew word Sheol means the same thing as ‘the current hell’ as you and Bill believe it? Well let’s see. All the words in bold in the verses below are the Hebrew word Sheol, which you say is ‘the current hell’, your eternal torture chamber for mankind:
“The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: He bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.” (1 Samuel 2:6)
“O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, That thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, That thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!” (Job 14:13)
“For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; Neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Psalm 16:10)
“O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: Thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.” (Psalm 30:3)
“But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: For he shall receive me. Selah.” (Psalm 49:15)
“For great is thy mercy toward me: And thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.” (Psalm 86:13)
“What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.” (Psalm 89:48)
“If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: If I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.” (Psalm 139:8)
“Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.” (Ecclesiastes 9:10)
“I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: Repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.” (Hosea 13:14)
“Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; Though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:” (Amos 9:2)
Challenge time again, Thomas. Given your view that the Hebrew word Sheol ALWAYS means ‘the current hell’, can you please explain these verses to me? Bill Weise didn’t list these verses on his web site. I wonder why not? What do you think?
Before I leave this section, I can’t help but give a little more attention to Bill’s laughably bad exegeses of the Hebrew word Sheol. Bill says:
Before I leave this section, I can’t help but give a little more attention to Bill’s laughably bad exegeses of the Hebrew word Sheol. Bill says:
Isaiah 14:11 says, “Thy pomp is brought down to the grave.” This verse is talking about the king of Babylon and actually Lucifer. The Amplified Bible says, “Brought down to Sheol, the underworld.” It is not just referring to the grave.
Bill tells us this verse is talking about Lucifer (the Devil), so Sheol here simply cannot just be the grave. Why didn’t Bill give us the rest of the passage?
“They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; That opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, Lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, And as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, That go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, Because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: The seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.” (Isaiah 14:16–20)
Strange words indeed if this passage is really about the Devil burning in ‘hell’.
Bill says:
Bill says:
Proverbs 23:14 says, “Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and deliver his soul from hell,” or Sheol. That’s talking about disciplining a child so he can avoid going to hell. Of course it wouldn’t be referring to a grave because you can’t redeem your child from going to a grave. He’s talking about hell. Also the word “beat” is actually the word “strike” or “smote.” It’s not referring to child abuse.
Really? Thomas, do you really agree with Bill here that this verse is talking about disciplining a child to keep him from going to ‘hell’; the hell that you and Bill teach? Bill says:
Of course it wouldn’t be referring to a grave because you can’t redeem your child from going to a grave.
What?! But you can redeem him from going to hell??? What kind of nonsense is this? Isn’t it painfully obvious that this verse is speaking about disciplining a child to keep them from getting themselves killed?
Bill says:
Bill says:
Proverbs 27:20, “Hell and destruction are never full.” Obviously it’s not talking about the grave. It’s talking about hell. Again it’s the word “Sheol.”
Did I miss something? Why, pray tell, is it obvious that this verse isn’t talking about the grave? Last time I checked, simply asserting something without proof doesn’t make it true. Has mankind stopped burying men in graves?
Bill says:
Bill says:
Job 17:16, “They shall go down to the bars of the pit.” The word “pit” is the word “Sheol.” We know that a grave doesn’t have bars.
Seriously Thomas, does this sort of thing impress you? Why didn’t Bill give us the context of this passage, or even all of verse 16? I wonder.
“I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: To the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope, who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of the pit, When our rest together is in the dust.” (Job 17:14–16)
Bill might have helped us out more by letting us know that corruption literally never fathered anyone, or that a worm never acted literally as human mother or sister! Has Bill ever heard of poetic language?
Interestingly, why did he also leave out the last part of verse 16? When these go down to ‘the bars of the pit’, they ‘rest together in the dust’. Why do you think he left that part out?
The fact is Thomas, your fiery, eternal, demon infested hell is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. That concept is completely absent from the Hebrew word Sheol as any good Hebrew lexicon will verify. God never warned anyone about it, nor did his judges, priests, prophets or kings.
HELL IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Many have accused me (you may agree with them) of not believing in punishment for sin. That would be completely incorrect. The Bible warns that there are serious consequences for sin and that the wicked will not go unpunished. I have never denied that, nor have I disputed it.
The Bible’s warnings, and in particular the warnings given to us by our Lord Jesus need to be taken with the utmost seriousness.
However, it is a mistake, a serious mistake, to impute to Jesus, or to his apostles an abhorrent teaching that is nowhere to be found in their words or writings. Thomas, what if you are wrong? What if you have mistakenly believed and taught that Jesus will mercilessly torment billions of men and women in flames for all eternity when Jesus in fact taught no such thing. That would be nothing less than blasphemous slander upon the character of your God and of your savior.
I challenge and plead with you to seek the truth in this matter.
Bill Weise has the following to say under the question heading ‘Didn’t Jesus Just Preach Love and Acceptance?’:
Interestingly, why did he also leave out the last part of verse 16? When these go down to ‘the bars of the pit’, they ‘rest together in the dust’. Why do you think he left that part out?
The fact is Thomas, your fiery, eternal, demon infested hell is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. That concept is completely absent from the Hebrew word Sheol as any good Hebrew lexicon will verify. God never warned anyone about it, nor did his judges, priests, prophets or kings.
HELL IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
Many have accused me (you may agree with them) of not believing in punishment for sin. That would be completely incorrect. The Bible warns that there are serious consequences for sin and that the wicked will not go unpunished. I have never denied that, nor have I disputed it.
The Bible’s warnings, and in particular the warnings given to us by our Lord Jesus need to be taken with the utmost seriousness.
However, it is a mistake, a serious mistake, to impute to Jesus, or to his apostles an abhorrent teaching that is nowhere to be found in their words or writings. Thomas, what if you are wrong? What if you have mistakenly believed and taught that Jesus will mercilessly torment billions of men and women in flames for all eternity when Jesus in fact taught no such thing. That would be nothing less than blasphemous slander upon the character of your God and of your savior.
I challenge and plead with you to seek the truth in this matter.
Bill Weise has the following to say under the question heading ‘Didn’t Jesus Just Preach Love and Acceptance?’:
No, He preached repentance and obedience (Matt.4:17, 12:50; Luke13:3, 8:21; Acts 17:30).
The first word out of the mouth of Jesus was “repent” (Matt.4:17). There are 46 verses where He spoke about hell, and 18 of those verses were about the fires of hell. He also said, “Woe unto you, scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites…for ye are like unto whited sepulchers…full of dead men’s bones…ye snakes, vipers…full of extortion… How can you escape the damnation of hell?” (Matt.23) He said, “those mine enemies, bring hither, and slay them before me (Luke 19:27).
How’s that for the sweet, soft, and accepting Jesus that many try and paint Him as? Don’t get me wrong, as He is a loving and gentle God; but He is also a holy and just God, and will pour out His wrath on sin (Matt.24:51, 25:41-46; Rom.1:18; Eph.5:5-6; 2Thes.1:9; Rev.14:10-11, 20:12-15). Some say that preaching hell is using scare tactics. Well, hell should scare any rational person. In addition, Jesus spoke of hell in 46 verses. He spoke more on hell than anyone else. A message of warning IS a message of love.
The real question here is not whether Jesus preached about repentance, obedience, and judgment. No real Christian would dispute those points. The question is - What is the ‘hell’ that Jesus warned us about? Is it the ‘hell’ of you and Bill Weise – the hell of torture by demons, of fire, of worms, with no hope for escape for all eternity? I think not.
Earlier I asked you to consider a Bible passage in Ezekiel 37 and whether or not that passage is to be taken literally. You might recall Thomas that that passage, if taken at face value, is utterly fatal to your beloved teaching about eternal hellfire.
Now I’d like you to consider another – this time from the very mouth of our savior Jesus:
Earlier I asked you to consider a Bible passage in Ezekiel 37 and whether or not that passage is to be taken literally. You might recall Thomas that that passage, if taken at face value, is utterly fatal to your beloved teaching about eternal hellfire.
Now I’d like you to consider another – this time from the very mouth of our savior Jesus:
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:43–48)
Here's another challenge for you Thomas; Is this passage literal or figurative?
How many hands do you currently have Thomas? How about your feet? Are both of your eyes still available to read this? Or maybe you’re just sinless and your hands, feet, or eyes have never offended? What do you think? Literal or figurative?
It’s complicated isn’t it? Let me guess – you’re going to tell me that Jesus obviously didn’t want us to literally chop off our hands and feet or to literally pluck out our eyes. That would be nonsense wouldn’t it? I got it. I understand. I don’t think I’ve ever met a self-maimed Christian who took that literally.
So, what about that unquenchable fire of hell and those worms? Yeah, I know, then that part of the passage is figurative too right? Wait, no? It’s literal you say??
According to you and Bill Weise that unquenchable fire and those worms must be taken in their strictest and most literal sense. They have to be, right? Without them you have no doctrine of hell. Yet there they stand in a passage with language that you are forced to admit must be taken figuratively!
Remember what Bill said?
How many hands do you currently have Thomas? How about your feet? Are both of your eyes still available to read this? Or maybe you’re just sinless and your hands, feet, or eyes have never offended? What do you think? Literal or figurative?
It’s complicated isn’t it? Let me guess – you’re going to tell me that Jesus obviously didn’t want us to literally chop off our hands and feet or to literally pluck out our eyes. That would be nonsense wouldn’t it? I got it. I understand. I don’t think I’ve ever met a self-maimed Christian who took that literally.
So, what about that unquenchable fire of hell and those worms? Yeah, I know, then that part of the passage is figurative too right? Wait, no? It’s literal you say??
According to you and Bill Weise that unquenchable fire and those worms must be taken in their strictest and most literal sense. They have to be, right? Without them you have no doctrine of hell. Yet there they stand in a passage with language that you are forced to admit must be taken figuratively!
Remember what Bill said?
If all the verses which mention burning fire are only a metaphor, then how could we ever take the rest of what the Bible says literally? Which parts are literal, and which parts would be a metaphor?
And yet Thomas, here we have one of those very passages, you know, one which mentions that burning fire, which just has to be literal, doesn’t it?
Let me suggest something to you Thomas. You and Bill Weise are wrong and hopelessly and completely confused. You are wrong about that word ‘hell’ in this passage, you are wrong about that unquenchable fire, and you are wrong about those worms.
The Word Hell
Let me suggest something to you Thomas. You and Bill Weise are wrong and hopelessly and completely confused. You are wrong about that word ‘hell’ in this passage, you are wrong about that unquenchable fire, and you are wrong about those worms.
The Word Hell
“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched"
The Greek word which has here been translated ‘hell’ is gehenna. In order to get to the truth about this hell, the hell which Jesus warned about, we must explore this Greek word.
On this word gehenna, Bill Weise has this to say:
On this word gehenna, Bill Weise has this to say:
Jesus used the word “Gehenna” eleven times (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; Matt. 10:28; Matt. 18:9; Matt. 23:15; Matt. 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45,47; Luke 12:5). Gehenna refers to the future lake of fire mentioned in Rev. 20:12-15, Rev. 14:9-10 and Rev. 21:8. James used the word Gehenna once in James 3:6. Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew term “Valley of Hinnom,” which came to mean “hell” along with Topheth.
What a universe of careless contempt and deceit is to be found in this statement! What an amazing sleight of hand Bill has attempted to pull off!
He tells us that “Gehenna refers to the ‘future lake of fire" before he tells us what the word gehenna even means. Then he says, “Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew term “Valley of Hinnom,” which came to mean “hell” along with Topheth.”
Did you catch that Thomas, or are you so accustomed to this type of deceitful nonsense that you’re now blind to it? Bill tells us that a word meaning ‘Valley of Hinnom’ came to mean ‘hell’. For any sincere seeker of the truth, the red flags should have already been thrown all over the field.
WHAT, pray tell, is the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ or ‘Topheth’?
HOW did the name of a VALLEY come to mean HELL?
WHY would a VALLEY mean HELL?
WHEN did ‘Valley of Hinnom’ come to mean ‘Hell’?
WHO told us that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ means ‘Hell’?
Thomas, may I suggest to you that unless you can thoroughly and satisfactorily answer these questions that your whole theory about the definition of hell is fatally flawed? Do you see why? This may seem a little abstract to you, so allow me to help you through it.
Bill Weise has just told us the problem. The word ‘gehenna’ does not mean ‘hell’. It means ‘the Valley of Hinnom’. But, he says, ‘it came to mean hell’.
I just showed you that the hell that you and Bill Weise believe in isn’t found in the Old Testament. Now we’re in the New Testament. If this word gehenna didn’t originally mean hell, then where are those verses which clearly tell us what hell is? Unless we have those verses, then this word gehenna which means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ cannot come to mean ‘hell’ because the concept of hell wouldn’t yet scripturally exist!
Yet when we ask for those Bible verses which tell us what hell is, these are the very verses we get – those which use a word that means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ and supposedly only came to mean ‘hell’.
Do you see the problem here Thomas? A word cannot come to mean something entirely different, unless that other thing which the word is coming to define is already clearly delineated.
I can say that the word ‘Red’ came to mean a ‘Communist’. But the word ‘Red’ cannot come to mean ‘Communist’ unless Communists exist and are already well defined. The word ‘Red’ has as little to do with the word ‘Communist’ as ‘gehenna’, or the ‘Valley of Hinnom’, has to do with ‘Hell’.
Thomas let’s reason here…. You have no description of your hell of eternal punishment in the Old Testament scriptures. I’ve outlined why. If you think I’m wrong, then I challenge you to prove it. How can ‘The Valley of Hinnom’ come to mean ‘Hell’ when that concept isn’t even well defined and is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew scriptures? The only verses from the mouth of Jesus you and Bill Weise can offer to define what hell is are the very verses that contain this word which means ‘Valley of Hinnom’.
But Thomas, let me suggest you’ve got an even bigger problem. Didn’t Bill Weise tell us that the Old Testament Sheol is ‘THE CURRENT HELL’? And didn’t he also tell that the New Testament Gehenna is THE FINAL HELL, and therefore two different things? Bill says that gehenna came to mean ‘hell’. But by his own admission it can’t be the ‘hell’ of the Old Testament, because that ‘hell’ is the CURRENT ONE, and not the FINAL ONE which he says is represented by gehenna.
I think Christians sometimes forget that the Jews to whom Jesus preached did not have the New Testament, nor did they speak English. When they heard Jesus speak of gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, what would they have thought? Well, they couldn’t possibly think Jesus meant that it was the same thing as the Old Testament Sheol – even Bill Weise admits this. Sheol is the CURRENT HELL, and Gehenna is the FINAL HELL he says. But Jesus' listeners could never have thought Gehenna was some ‘final hell’, because there was no such final hell in their scriptures! Do you see the problem?
Unless you can answer the questions that I’ve listed above and PROVE that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (what gehenna means) represents your eternal, ever-burning, demon-infested final torture prison, then any verse which contains this Greek word gehenna is fatal to your entire theory.
But trust me Thomas, as far as your theory goes, it only gets worse from here. How? Because I’m going to answer those questions for you, and if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll see that those answers only work to further weaken your position.
But before I do that, let me ask you a question. Do you believe in the perspicuity of scripture? That is, do you believe that the essential doctrines of the faith are clearly delineated within the scriptures themselves, and therefore an obscure passage scripture is best interpreted by other scripture?
I, like most Christians would answer yes. What about you? The importance of this question will soon become apparent.
What is the Valley of Hinnom?
Since the word gehenna literally means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ the first thing to recognize is that descriptions of this valley are not foreign to the scriptures. The Anchor-Yale Bible dictionary contains a good summary of the Old Testament data on this subject:
He tells us that “Gehenna refers to the ‘future lake of fire" before he tells us what the word gehenna even means. Then he says, “Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew term “Valley of Hinnom,” which came to mean “hell” along with Topheth.”
Did you catch that Thomas, or are you so accustomed to this type of deceitful nonsense that you’re now blind to it? Bill tells us that a word meaning ‘Valley of Hinnom’ came to mean ‘hell’. For any sincere seeker of the truth, the red flags should have already been thrown all over the field.
WHAT, pray tell, is the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ or ‘Topheth’?
HOW did the name of a VALLEY come to mean HELL?
WHY would a VALLEY mean HELL?
WHEN did ‘Valley of Hinnom’ come to mean ‘Hell’?
WHO told us that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ means ‘Hell’?
Thomas, may I suggest to you that unless you can thoroughly and satisfactorily answer these questions that your whole theory about the definition of hell is fatally flawed? Do you see why? This may seem a little abstract to you, so allow me to help you through it.
Bill Weise has just told us the problem. The word ‘gehenna’ does not mean ‘hell’. It means ‘the Valley of Hinnom’. But, he says, ‘it came to mean hell’.
I just showed you that the hell that you and Bill Weise believe in isn’t found in the Old Testament. Now we’re in the New Testament. If this word gehenna didn’t originally mean hell, then where are those verses which clearly tell us what hell is? Unless we have those verses, then this word gehenna which means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ cannot come to mean ‘hell’ because the concept of hell wouldn’t yet scripturally exist!
Yet when we ask for those Bible verses which tell us what hell is, these are the very verses we get – those which use a word that means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ and supposedly only came to mean ‘hell’.
Do you see the problem here Thomas? A word cannot come to mean something entirely different, unless that other thing which the word is coming to define is already clearly delineated.
I can say that the word ‘Red’ came to mean a ‘Communist’. But the word ‘Red’ cannot come to mean ‘Communist’ unless Communists exist and are already well defined. The word ‘Red’ has as little to do with the word ‘Communist’ as ‘gehenna’, or the ‘Valley of Hinnom’, has to do with ‘Hell’.
Thomas let’s reason here…. You have no description of your hell of eternal punishment in the Old Testament scriptures. I’ve outlined why. If you think I’m wrong, then I challenge you to prove it. How can ‘The Valley of Hinnom’ come to mean ‘Hell’ when that concept isn’t even well defined and is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew scriptures? The only verses from the mouth of Jesus you and Bill Weise can offer to define what hell is are the very verses that contain this word which means ‘Valley of Hinnom’.
But Thomas, let me suggest you’ve got an even bigger problem. Didn’t Bill Weise tell us that the Old Testament Sheol is ‘THE CURRENT HELL’? And didn’t he also tell that the New Testament Gehenna is THE FINAL HELL, and therefore two different things? Bill says that gehenna came to mean ‘hell’. But by his own admission it can’t be the ‘hell’ of the Old Testament, because that ‘hell’ is the CURRENT ONE, and not the FINAL ONE which he says is represented by gehenna.
I think Christians sometimes forget that the Jews to whom Jesus preached did not have the New Testament, nor did they speak English. When they heard Jesus speak of gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, what would they have thought? Well, they couldn’t possibly think Jesus meant that it was the same thing as the Old Testament Sheol – even Bill Weise admits this. Sheol is the CURRENT HELL, and Gehenna is the FINAL HELL he says. But Jesus' listeners could never have thought Gehenna was some ‘final hell’, because there was no such final hell in their scriptures! Do you see the problem?
Unless you can answer the questions that I’ve listed above and PROVE that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (what gehenna means) represents your eternal, ever-burning, demon-infested final torture prison, then any verse which contains this Greek word gehenna is fatal to your entire theory.
But trust me Thomas, as far as your theory goes, it only gets worse from here. How? Because I’m going to answer those questions for you, and if you’re honest with yourself, you’ll see that those answers only work to further weaken your position.
But before I do that, let me ask you a question. Do you believe in the perspicuity of scripture? That is, do you believe that the essential doctrines of the faith are clearly delineated within the scriptures themselves, and therefore an obscure passage scripture is best interpreted by other scripture?
I, like most Christians would answer yes. What about you? The importance of this question will soon become apparent.
What is the Valley of Hinnom?
Since the word gehenna literally means ‘Valley of Hinnom’ the first thing to recognize is that descriptions of this valley are not foreign to the scriptures. The Anchor-Yale Bible dictionary contains a good summary of the Old Testament data on this subject:
The Valley of Hinnom marked the boundary between the inheritance of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Josh 15:8; 18:16) and the northern border of Judah after the captivity (Neh 11:30). The valley was the scene of the idolatrous worship of the Canaanite gods Molech and Baal. This worship consisted of sacrificing children by passing them through a fire on Topheth (a high place) and into the hands of the gods (Jer 7:31; 19:4–5; 32:35). These practices were observed during monarchy at least under the reigns of Ahaz and Manasseh who themselves sacrificed their own children (2 Kgs 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr 28:3; 33:6).
Josiah defiled the site as part of his reform program (2 Kgs 23:10; cf. vv 13–14), but the prophecy of Jeremiah indicates that it probably recurred later in the monarchy. Jeremiah prophesied that it would no longer be called Topheth or the Valley of Hinnom, but the valley of Slaughter because of the numerous Judeans killed and thrown into it by the Babylonians (Jer 7:29–34; 19:1–15).
Freedman, David Noel, Gary A. Herion, David F. Graf, John David Pleins, and Astrid B. Beck, eds. The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday, 1992. Vol. 2 Pg. 297
Let me make something perfectly clear here Thomas; This is what your Bible, in the Old Testament, has to say about gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom. What do we learn? The valley became associated with idolatry and the worship of the false god Molech, and child sacrifice by burning was performed in this valley.
The prophet Jeremiah said that the Valley of Hinnom would come to be called something else, namely the ‘valley of slaughter’ because of the great slaughter of Jews by the Babylonians which would occur there.
Do you see a problem here Thomas? Bill Weise (and I assume you agree with him), told us that gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, came to mean ‘hell’. When did that happen Thomas? Certainly not in the Old Testament. As far as the Old Testament is concerned, I’ve just given you the entirety of the evidence. Between the last Old Testament prophet Malachi and the coming of John the Baptist and Jesus, the Jews had no inspired prophet, and no inspired scripture was written.
Bill Weise would have us believe that by the time Jesus uttered the word gehenna, that it had come to mean ‘hell’. We know that it certainly didn’t mean ‘hell’ in the Old Testament. I ask again, WHEN did this word change its meaning? HOW and WHY did it change meaning?
Fortunately, the same Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary gives us the answer:
The prophet Jeremiah said that the Valley of Hinnom would come to be called something else, namely the ‘valley of slaughter’ because of the great slaughter of Jews by the Babylonians which would occur there.
Do you see a problem here Thomas? Bill Weise (and I assume you agree with him), told us that gehenna, or the Valley of Hinnom, came to mean ‘hell’. When did that happen Thomas? Certainly not in the Old Testament. As far as the Old Testament is concerned, I’ve just given you the entirety of the evidence. Between the last Old Testament prophet Malachi and the coming of John the Baptist and Jesus, the Jews had no inspired prophet, and no inspired scripture was written.
Bill Weise would have us believe that by the time Jesus uttered the word gehenna, that it had come to mean ‘hell’. We know that it certainly didn’t mean ‘hell’ in the Old Testament. I ask again, WHEN did this word change its meaning? HOW and WHY did it change meaning?
Fortunately, the same Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary gives us the answer:
One product of the development of a concept of the afterlife during the Hellenistic Period was the notion of a fiery judgment (1 En. 10:13; 48:8–10; 100:7–9; 108:4–7; Jdt 16:17; 2 Bar. 85:13), a judgment usually in a fiery lake or abyss (1 En. 18:9–16; 90:24–27; 103:7–8; 2 En. 40:12; 2 Bar. 59:5–12; 1QH 3). The Valley of Hinnom, often referred to simply as “the accursed valley” or “abyss,” then came to represent the place of eschatological judgment of the wicked Jews by fire (1 En. 26–27; 54:1–6; 56:1–4; 90:24–27).
By at least the 1st century c.e. there emerged a metaphorical understanding of Gehenna as the place of judgment by fire for all wicked everywhere (Sib. Or. 1.100–103; 2.283–312). The judgment of the wicked occurred either as a casting of their soul in Gehenna immediately upon death or as a casting of the reunited body and soul into Gehenna after the resurrection and last judgment (2 Esdr 7:26–38; 4 Ezra 7:26–38; Ascen. Is. 4:14–18; cf. Sib. Or. 4.179–91). This understanding divorced Gehenna from its geographical location, but retained its fiery nature. Gehenna had become hell itself.
There it is Thomas! Bill Weise was right, wasn’t he? Gehenna did indeed come to represent the place of judgment, and gehenna did in fact become hell itself!
But wait. Do you happen to see any little problem here Thomas? Anything in the above jump out at you?
WHEN did gehenna become hell? WHY did gehenna become hell? Did God inspire his Old Testament prophets to tell us that gehenna was hell? No, he did not. It was not until the Jews came under the influence of the pagan Greeks that gehenna got turned into hell – a place of fiery judgment in the afterlife.
Look at the references in those last two paragraphs from the Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary. Do you see a problem Thomas? Not one of those references comes from your Bible. All of them come from uninspired or apocryphal documents written between the closing of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. I repeat, not one of those references showing how ‘The Valley of Hinnom’ became hell came from one of God’s inspired prophets, not one. Conversely, not one inspired Old Testament prophet wrote about or knew of any such concept.
Are we supposed to believe that for nearly 4000 years of human history God warned no one about an eternal place of fiery torment? During this entire time, the inspired Old Testament writers spoke of this ‘Valley of Hinnom’, yet not one of those writers ever wrote or even hinted that this valley was to become ‘hell’. And yet, YET, during the time when there was no inspired prophet in Israel, a time when no inspired scripture was being given… a time when Jews were increasingly falling under the understanding of the pagan Greeks… only THEN is it revealed that the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ has come to be known as ‘hell’. Unbelievable. Can you think of any reason why Bill Weise wouldn’t have told us all this? In fact, can you think of any reason why most Christians have never been taught this information in their churches?
Unfortunately, knowing when and how gehenna became ‘hell’ solves nothing. How so? Consider this. As Bill Weise says, ‘Gehenna came to be known as hell’. What does he mean by this statement? It can only mean that Gehenna came to represent a place of fiery eternal torment in the afterlife. But Thomas, I’ve already shown you that there is no such place in the entirely of the inspired Old Testament writings. If gehenna came to mean ‘the place of eternal torment in the afterlife’, then where did the Jews even learn of such a concept? From their scriptures or prophets? No, but from pagan Greeks.
Now I have a very serious question for you Thomas, and I caution you to think hard and be very careful how you answer it.
When Jesus used the word gehenna how do you think he used it? Did he use it in a way consistent with how the Old Testament and inspired prophets used it, or did he use it in a way consistent with the uninspired writers during a time when the Jews were influenced by the pagan Greeks? What do you think? Did Jesus agree with the inspired prophets, or the pagan Greeks?
You might say to me that it doesn’t matter, and that when Jesus, as the Son of God, used the word it simply meant ‘hell’, and on that authority the matter is settled. But this settles nothing. Gehenna does not mean ‘hell’. It means ‘The Valley of Hinnom’. As Bill Weise said, the word came to mean hell. So, what are our choices?
I asked you earlier Thomas if you believed in the perspicuity of scripture. If you answered yes to that question, then you simply must reject options 2 and 3. Both are ruled out because they would mean that scripture alone is insufficient to explain what Jesus meant on this most important Biblical doctrine. Your Bible, in the place where gehenna appears might read ‘hell’, but Jesus’ audience never heard the word ‘hell’. They heard ‘Valley of Hinnom’. Bill Weise told us that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ came to mean ‘hell’. It surely did for some people, but there is nothing in the entire Bible that tells you HOW or WHY this happened.
Let’s be perfectly clear about what’s going on and what people like you, Bill Weise, and all teachers of eternal torment are saying.
The Old Testament knows nothing of your doctrine of eternal torment. We know in exactly what time period the Jews started to believe these fables – fables that were foreign to their scriptures; during the period between the close of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. Jesus’ teaching is supposedly, according to you, in line with, not the Old Testament, but the uninspired writings of the apocrypha.
On the basis of Biblical authority, that sir, is a proposition I cannot, and will not accept.
But I don’t have to Thomas, because as we shall see, the way Jesus used the word gehenna is completely in line with the inspired Old Testament, and utterly disconnected from your eternal hell of torment!
Hell in the Apocryphal and Pseudepigraphal Writings
I suspect that you may enjoy the following passage Thomas:
But wait. Do you happen to see any little problem here Thomas? Anything in the above jump out at you?
WHEN did gehenna become hell? WHY did gehenna become hell? Did God inspire his Old Testament prophets to tell us that gehenna was hell? No, he did not. It was not until the Jews came under the influence of the pagan Greeks that gehenna got turned into hell – a place of fiery judgment in the afterlife.
Look at the references in those last two paragraphs from the Anchor-Yale Bible Dictionary. Do you see a problem Thomas? Not one of those references comes from your Bible. All of them come from uninspired or apocryphal documents written between the closing of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. I repeat, not one of those references showing how ‘The Valley of Hinnom’ became hell came from one of God’s inspired prophets, not one. Conversely, not one inspired Old Testament prophet wrote about or knew of any such concept.
Are we supposed to believe that for nearly 4000 years of human history God warned no one about an eternal place of fiery torment? During this entire time, the inspired Old Testament writers spoke of this ‘Valley of Hinnom’, yet not one of those writers ever wrote or even hinted that this valley was to become ‘hell’. And yet, YET, during the time when there was no inspired prophet in Israel, a time when no inspired scripture was being given… a time when Jews were increasingly falling under the understanding of the pagan Greeks… only THEN is it revealed that the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ has come to be known as ‘hell’. Unbelievable. Can you think of any reason why Bill Weise wouldn’t have told us all this? In fact, can you think of any reason why most Christians have never been taught this information in their churches?
Unfortunately, knowing when and how gehenna became ‘hell’ solves nothing. How so? Consider this. As Bill Weise says, ‘Gehenna came to be known as hell’. What does he mean by this statement? It can only mean that Gehenna came to represent a place of fiery eternal torment in the afterlife. But Thomas, I’ve already shown you that there is no such place in the entirely of the inspired Old Testament writings. If gehenna came to mean ‘the place of eternal torment in the afterlife’, then where did the Jews even learn of such a concept? From their scriptures or prophets? No, but from pagan Greeks.
Now I have a very serious question for you Thomas, and I caution you to think hard and be very careful how you answer it.
When Jesus used the word gehenna how do you think he used it? Did he use it in a way consistent with how the Old Testament and inspired prophets used it, or did he use it in a way consistent with the uninspired writers during a time when the Jews were influenced by the pagan Greeks? What do you think? Did Jesus agree with the inspired prophets, or the pagan Greeks?
You might say to me that it doesn’t matter, and that when Jesus, as the Son of God, used the word it simply meant ‘hell’, and on that authority the matter is settled. But this settles nothing. Gehenna does not mean ‘hell’. It means ‘The Valley of Hinnom’. As Bill Weise said, the word came to mean hell. So, what are our choices?
- Jesus used gehenna in a way consistent with the inspired writings of the Old Testament.
- Jesus used gehenna in a way inconsistent with the Old Testament and agreed with the uninspired definition developed between the close of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament.
- Jesus rejected both views and himself redefined the word, and hence gave his audience, and indeed us, no prior historical or Old Testament context with which to understand the association between a literal Jerusalem valley, and an eternal place of fiery torment in the afterlife.
I asked you earlier Thomas if you believed in the perspicuity of scripture. If you answered yes to that question, then you simply must reject options 2 and 3. Both are ruled out because they would mean that scripture alone is insufficient to explain what Jesus meant on this most important Biblical doctrine. Your Bible, in the place where gehenna appears might read ‘hell’, but Jesus’ audience never heard the word ‘hell’. They heard ‘Valley of Hinnom’. Bill Weise told us that ‘Valley of Hinnom’ came to mean ‘hell’. It surely did for some people, but there is nothing in the entire Bible that tells you HOW or WHY this happened.
Let’s be perfectly clear about what’s going on and what people like you, Bill Weise, and all teachers of eternal torment are saying.
The Old Testament knows nothing of your doctrine of eternal torment. We know in exactly what time period the Jews started to believe these fables – fables that were foreign to their scriptures; during the period between the close of the Old Testament and the writing of the New Testament. Jesus’ teaching is supposedly, according to you, in line with, not the Old Testament, but the uninspired writings of the apocrypha.
On the basis of Biblical authority, that sir, is a proposition I cannot, and will not accept.
But I don’t have to Thomas, because as we shall see, the way Jesus used the word gehenna is completely in line with the inspired Old Testament, and utterly disconnected from your eternal hell of torment!
Hell in the Apocryphal and Pseudepigraphal Writings
I suspect that you may enjoy the following passage Thomas:
20. And over against that place I saw another, squalid, and it was the place of punishment; and those who were punished there and the punishing angels had their raiment dark like the air of the place.
21. And there were certain there hanging by the tongue: and these were the blasphemers of the way of righteousness; and under them lay fire, burning and punishing them.
22. And there was a great lake, full of flaming mire, in which were certain men that pervert righteousness, and tormenting angels afflicted them.
23. And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair over that mire that bubbled up: and these were they who adorned themselves for adultery; and the men who mingled with them in the defilement of adultery, were hanging by the feet and their heads in that mire. And I said: I did not believe that I should come into this place.
24. And I saw the murderers and those who conspired with them, cast into a certain strait place, full of evil snakes, and smitten by those beasts, and thus turning to and fro in that punishment; and worms, as it were clouds of darkness, afflicted them. And the souls of the murdered stood and looked upon the punishment of those murderers and said: O God, thy judgment is just.
25. And near that place I saw another strait place into which the gore and the filth of those who were being punished ran down and became there as it were a lake: and there sat women having the gore up to their necks, and over against them sat many children who were born to them out of due time, crying; and there came forth from them sparks of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion.
26. And other men and women were burning up to the middle and were cast into a dark place and were beaten by evil spirits, and their inwards were eaten by restless worms: and these were they who persecuted the righteous and delivered them up.
27. And near those there were again women and men gnawing their own lips, and being punished and receiving a red-hot iron in their eyes: and these were they who blasphemed and slandered the way of righteousness.
28. And over against these again other men and women gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths: and these were the false witnesses.
29. And in a certain other place there were pebbles sharper than swords or any spit, red-hot, and women and men in tattered and filthy raiment rolled about on them in punishment: and these were the rich who trusted in their riches and had no pity for orphans and widows, and despised the commandment of God.
30. And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.
31. And other men and women were being hurled down from a great cliff and reached the bottom, and again were driven by those who were set over them to climb up upon the cliff, and thence were hurled down again, and had no rest from this punishment: and these were they who defiled their bodies acting as women; and the women who were with them were those who lay with one another as a man with a woman.
32. And alongside of that cliff there was a place full of much fire, and there stood men who with their own hands had made for themselves carven images instead of God. And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.
33. And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God
Wow! That sounds a lot like the ‘hell’ you and Bill Weise believe in! Do you know what it doesn’t sound like? Anything you ever read in your Bible!
That lurid, highly imaginative (and I might add, disgusting) passage is from The Apocalypse of Peter, a second century A.D. pseudepigraphal work.
I’ve often heard it said that ‘Jesus was the greatest hellfire preacher that ever walked the earth’. Apparently, he was not! I’d say that the writer of the Apocalypse of Peter has him beat by a longshot. Why do you think Jesus didn’t preach like this Thomas? Why do you think that this type of language is completely absent from the Bible?
It certainly doesn’t sound like anything in the Bible, but golly, it does sound like something I’ve heard before. Let’s see:
That lurid, highly imaginative (and I might add, disgusting) passage is from The Apocalypse of Peter, a second century A.D. pseudepigraphal work.
I’ve often heard it said that ‘Jesus was the greatest hellfire preacher that ever walked the earth’. Apparently, he was not! I’d say that the writer of the Apocalypse of Peter has him beat by a longshot. Why do you think Jesus didn’t preach like this Thomas? Why do you think that this type of language is completely absent from the Bible?
It certainly doesn’t sound like anything in the Bible, but golly, it does sound like something I’ve heard before. Let’s see:
But the true parallels for, if not the sources of, its imagery of the rewards and punishments which await men after death are to be found in Greek beliefs which have left their traces in such passages as the Vision of Er at the end of Plato’s Republic.
So likewise in the case of the torments of the wicked as presented in the Revelation of Peter. We are not here in the Jewish Sheol, or among the fires of the valley of Hinnom, so much as among the tortures of Tartarus and the boiling mud of the Acherusian Lake (cf. Plato, Phædo, p. 113; Aristophanes, Frogs, line 145), or where “wild men of fiery aspect … seized and carried off several of them, and Ardiæus and others, they bound head and foot and hand, and threw them down and flayed them with scourges, and dragged them along the road at the side, carding them on thorns like wool, and declaring to the passers-by what were their crimes, and that they were being taken away to be cast into hell” (Republic, x., p. 616, Jowett’s transl.). It is not surprising that in later visions of the same kind the very names of the Greek under-world are ascribed to localities of hell. It is across the river Oceanus. It is called Tartarus. In it is the Acherusian Lake. Notice in this connection that the souls of innocent victims are present along with their murderers to accuse them.
Menzies, Allan, ed. The Gospel of Peter, the Diatessaron of Tatian, the Apocalypse of Peter, the Visio Pauli, the Apocalypses of the Virgil and Sedrach, the Testament of Abraham, the Acts of Xanthippe and Polyxena, the Narrative of Zosimus, the Apology of Aristides, the Epistles of Clement (Complete Text), Origen’s Commentary on John, Books I-X, and Commentary on Matthew, Books I, II, and X-XIV. Vol. 9. The Ante-Nicene Fathers. New York: Christian Literature Company, 1897. Pages 142, 143
When we examine this passage in its historical context Thomas, what do we find? That it has nothing to do with the Hebrew Sheol, nor the gehenna of which Jesus spoke, rather the hell of the pagan Greeks. Would you really have us believe that Jesus also taught this pagan nonsense?
Every extra-biblical passage that we can find that even comes close to resembling your nightmarish picture of hell has exactly the same problem; They are never considered inspired scripture, were almost universally rejected as such, and were all written during a time when the Jews were influenced by the pagan Greeks.
The apostle Paul warned us to pay no attention to ‘Jewish fables’. I suggest you might consider taking his advice.
Every extra-biblical passage that we can find that even comes close to resembling your nightmarish picture of hell has exactly the same problem; They are never considered inspired scripture, were almost universally rejected as such, and were all written during a time when the Jews were influenced by the pagan Greeks.
The apostle Paul warned us to pay no attention to ‘Jewish fables’. I suggest you might consider taking his advice.
